Clicks to Loyalty
In a digital landscape where every click counts, how do you transform casual browsers into loyal customers? Join us in this insightful session with Nikki, a seasoned marketing expert, as we dive into the intricacies of a customer experience and retention-focused technology stack. Learn how to leverage technology not just for short-term gains, but to cultivate lasting customer relationships.
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- And welcome to our next session
with Nicki Tubman of Sticky Digital.
Nicki, how are you doing today?
- Good, Brian, how are you?
- I'm doing just fine.
So let's just get right into it.
Nicki, tell us a little bit about how you came to find,
find, to found Sticky Digital,
the retention marketing agency.
- Yes, so as you said, I'm Nicki Tubman,
one of the co-founders of Sticky Tubman.
Sticky Tubman.
- It's a new name.
- It's digital.
And I actually came to found Sticky Digital
when I met my co-founders,
Mariel and a full app for this agency,
we were all at.
It was one of the larger shop by agencies,
and still is one of the largest shop by agencies.
And we started as, one of my co-founders
and I were employee number nine and 10,
and we got to know each other and really just started like,
we worked really well together.
And as we sort of like worked together
and we were at that agency,
we were both at that agency for quite a few years,
we were recruited to go brand side
and start working and building Shopify brands.
It was myself, her, our other co-founder
and there was like six other people
if they recruited from the same agency.
And so we went and brand side to start building
actual Shopify brands.
And we were in charge of doing everything
from sort of like the like finding of the products,
naming of the products,
like putting it all to market, building the Shopify store,
like doing the whole thing, branding exercises, everything.
And as we were going through it,
we realized that our previous CEO,
his background was in direct response.
So he was really great at like sort of like
throwing money at the funnel
and like these people converting.
Well, what we were realizing is that
on the other side of it, the retention keys,
we weren't spending a ton of time focused on retaining
his customers as we were pulling money into it.
There's still at this time where like
Facebook was still pretty good and you throw an onion
and really get a good return.
But we were like, hey, we need to work on actually
like bringing these people back
because this isn't gonna be a forever game.
And that sort of is really how sticky digital started
is that we realized that like so many brands
were doing that exact same thing, like just throwing money
and weren't really focused on sort of like,
then what, what happens next?
Just relying on people just coming back
because they know your products,
they like your products,
but not really like marketing to them.
And when getting into this, like we realized
sort of like retention by a lot of brands,
people think about it as like email, right?
Like email and SMS or as SMS was starting.
So like really email, it's about more than that.
It's more than just email and SMS
and brands weren't actually thinking of it that way.
They were thinking of like, oh retention,
I'm sending emails, I'm doing what I need to do,
but it really is like, are you actually taking all
of these tools and text facts that you have
and really tying them together to like speak
to the customers appropriately at the right time
when they need to be spoken to
and sort of like bringing them back
on their own personal journey.
So I'm gonna just go really deep into it.
It sounds to me that the the clonkance of the beginning
clients of yours and when you first started Sticky Digital,
they weren't even asking about retention.
It was more of you seeing that as an opportunity
and bringing it to them.
Do I have that right?
- Yeah, so we never started doing acquisition,
but the first couple of calls that we took ironically,
like people were speaking to us thinking
that like, that is what we were doing
and they were like, no, no, no.
- Acquisition.
- That yeah, like we are not doing that piece,
like we're doing the piece that nobody is thinking about,
which is that like retention piece.
So like you're very correct in stating that like,
people were really not understanding
like what we were trying to build, like retention wise,
'cause it was still this very foreign thing.
And I think now like not a lot of brands
really understand it.
And there's very few of us in this space
that solely do just retention marketing.
And so we still do today have some of those conversations
or people don't really know what that is.
- Like can I ask you about like,
what that discussion is like almost?
Because as you said, just even a couple of years ago
and yes in the present moment, but a couple of years ago,
it was so much on acquisition acquisition.
Like when you brought up retention
and you had to educate them on this,
was there a point where like you and your co-founders
were almost like, what are we doing?
Like let's make it easy on us and just talk about acquisition
and why did you not decide to do that and just say like,
no, like retention is key, we're gonna educate them,
they're gonna get it.
And what was that like?
- Yeah, well first of all, we're not masochists.
So we did not wanna do acquisition.
We never did.
It was never something that like we had a want or a drive
or a passion to do.
And I think some more people that didn't really understand
what retention was or how could be utilized profitably
or even well made us feel like we were doing the right thing
and like we were actually going down the right path.
The conversations for us were like educating people
on like full funnel retention marketing.
We're like, we're talking to them,
not just about email and SMS,
how you can pull in your subscription program
and how you can form loyalty, how you can form rewards,
how you can pull in like your customer service tools
to like really speak to your customers genuinely.
Those are the conversations that are the most fun for us
because it's just your uncovering sort of like
this whole new world to your merchants.
But that's like what makes it the most fun.
Like we've had so many calls like we're like,
oh, you do more than just send emails.
And it's like, yeah, like it's looking at the whole picture
and making sure that like when they get that email,
that email should be given to them
and that they don't have any customer service tickets opened,
that they don't have any sort of like,
they didn't just place an order and now you're right,
ask them into place in order for something else.
Like it is really like a full funnel picture
that people don't think about
when it comes to retention marketing.
- Yeah.
So correct me if I'm wrong,
but it sounds to me that you work with clients
and that and Shopify brands that are really starting
to figure things out and starting to scale
and wanting to scale, is that right?
- Yeah.
So we like our sweet spot is really anybody
that's doing over $5 million today on Shopify.
- No bad.
- But we work with brands that are doing over $55 million
a year on Shopify and there's sort of like
that whole space in between.
Cause even those guys that are doing a lot,
a good example of like we just did an audit for a brand
and they're driving a ton of revenue
through their retention, right?
Just through email and SMS.
They're driving a ton of revenue,
big influencer backed brand.
And like we did an audit for them and we're like,
hey, you guys should actually be collecting
first party data on entrance and you should be doing
and we listed out a whole bunch of things
that are like missed opportunities.
And they were like, oh,
we didn't even think about any of that stuff
because all we're doing is driving revenue today
through email.
We didn't actually think about like the longterm game.
So it's sort of like helping all of those brands
that even have a sophisticated systems that up
really understand that like there's probably significantly
more that you can be doing to help the future you.
- Now, I guess the way that I look at it,
two different buckets.
One is the different channels that you have
to optimize and to reach out and the customer touch points.
And then the other bucket is what you just mentioned
with like the actual customer data.
Do you, I guess my first question is,
do you think about it?
Is there another bucket that I'm missing?
And do you think about it like that?
And then the follow up question of that is,
is there one that comes first that you have
the discussions with?
Like is it more about the customer data first
and understanding how to capture that and where to store it?
Or is it about the channels first or maybe I'm wrong?
- No, I think like the thing that we try educating
most brains on first is like it really is about
the customer data and like you might know
what a customer wants by being able to run a segment
or like through some of these other like data tools, right?
That people are using.
But like you have all of the power through like
these retention tools to sort of like collect data
upon entry.
So we all know like you go to a website
and a pop up shows up and you're gonna put in your email
'cause you're gonna get 15% off or free shipping
or whatever that looks like.
Like why aren't you using this opportunity
to gather more information on your customer, right?
Like we work with a brand that's a maternity brand
but they also do postpartum stuff.
Why aren't you using that opportunity to find out
where are they in that journey, right?
Like when is their baby due?
Like literally any sort of information
that can add the personal touch on the line.
I think a lot of brands are really missing today
because as like it gets more competitive
you need to be more compelling and speak to them
as to who they are, where they are in their journey
and what they're looking for.
I mean, I'm a mom so I think like this speaks to me too
but like when I'm shopping for my kids stuff
I have both a girl and a boy
and so sending content to me
that has both like girl and boy imagery
or talking to the both of them speaks to me
'cause I have both but a mom that has maybe two girls
and you're sending her content
that's like really boy related stuff
or toys that like feature little boys playing with the toys.
Like it's just as easy as sort of like knowing
that she's a mom of girls
and switching the content that you're delivering to her
to feature all girl content.
Girl imagery, girl toys, like even if that's not
the sole focus of what you want to deliver to them
it's first impression, right?
So like knowing that like you're like mom I know you,
I see you like this is the stuff that you're gonna like
like all of that first party data
and really understanding who your customer is from the jump
is gonna be the most impactful for a brand.
- Yeah.
I wanna ask you about first party data
compared to like the third party data
and I guess my hypothesis is that
you're really pushing on your clients
to capture that first party data information
because of the transformation that has happened
in the last few years where you cannot rely on
any more third party data.
Is that a viewpoint that you would agree with?
And is there anything else that I'm missing
of why that first party data is now so much more important
than ever?
- Yeah, I think, I mean, I think you've hit it on the head,
right?
Like we don't know what to trust now, right?
Like you're hearing like, okay,
we can't even trust open rates.
We can't like we can't trust any of this data.
Like you can't trust any information that you're getting.
All of these like tools that are like,
oh, this is your geo, this is your demo.
Like you're having to take it for word,
but like you don't actually know, right?
So to me it just makes the most sense,
like ask for it in the beginning
when your customer is the most engaged
because even on this point,
even collecting first party data,
30 days down the line,
it's gonna be so much harder for you to collect it
from a customer than collecting it
from a customer with the intent on day one.
So like if you know Brian is shopping here
and he's willingly gonna give you his email,
collect another piece of information
that you can use further down the line.
And I think a lot of brands don't do that
because it's almost like analysis paralysis.
It's like, well, I wanna know all of these things
about this person.
So how do I choose what one thing I'm going to ask?
But you should really think about it strategically
and say like what one piece of information
can help me further down the line market to this person.
And you can use all of that information
in your Facebook ads, right?
Like you can push all of the data information
from Clavio into like a meta.
You can do a lot more with it
and just knowing that people are giving you the information.
Like I would trust that over a third party tool any day.
- Yeah.
You know, during this summit,
there's also a session with O'Kendo.
And during this discussion,
I tell all the audience like to also tune in there
because it's very relevant where O'Kendo talks about
obviously the first party data
and the ability they're pushing to do as many surveys
and questionnaires as possible on D2C websites.
And so that kind of leads me to again,
the tech stack and the retention marketing tech stack
in general, you know, I don't care if it's agnostic
or not, like in your opinion,
how do you, like where do you start?
And maybe as an agency too,
giving recommendations and suggestions to those brands,
the amount of tools now I feel like are analysts.
I think one more thing to mention is that
even if you look at the Shopify app store,
I think every month there's another 100,
I think I saw like another 100 or so apps
that have been approved in our own Shopify.
So I guess like tell us what's the suggestion?
Where do you start with the retention marketing stack
and help us or guide us through that process?
- Yeah, I think the biggest thing
that a merchant needs to remember is like
when you're looking at evaluating a new app,
like does it work with your current tech stack?
Does it work with your current other tools?
Like a lot of merchants get into marketing waters
when they're like, oh, this seems really cool.
And they'll like install an app
and they'll start running towards the finish line
with that app, but they don't realize
that it doesn't integrate or it can't like,
you can't push profile properties into Clavio
to like help you further segment.
Like you can't take the data that you're getting
from that tool and do anything else with it.
So I think like that's number one, right?
Like whenever we're like recommendations,
and I agree with you, I think there's plenty
of agencies that are like, they will shout
specific technologies from the rooftops.
Like for us, like we will always give our merchant options
and say like, hey, these are the best guys in this space.
And like these are the reasons why we think you would benefit.
These are the differences, right?
Like maybe it's a plus thing, maybe it's an ability thing.
Who knows?
But like these are the differences.
But what you need to make sure you're doing
is like look at how you can use the data from that one app
and how can you use it across multiple other channels?
A back-end stock tool, you don't wanna use a back-end stock app
that can't connect to your email
'cause then what's the point of it, right?
Just because it's cheaper doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Or you're gonna have to do a manual upload
into Clavio for all of the emails
that you've collected for a back-end stock.
Is the manpower actually that you're gonna have
to put in on the tail end actually worth the cost savings
when you could just have something that's like
collecting and building segments for you out of the gate, right?
So it's like you need to sort of like figure out
what's more important to you
when I think probably like time is money.
And so really thinking about how these all work together
is like primary and number one.
Like you need to find something that works
within your current wheelhouse.
And with that being said too,
like if you're looking at overhauling your tech stack,
I think that that's totally fine.
And great too, just make sure that as you start overhauling it,
you're probably overhauling it
because you found one technology that you really love
and you wanna move forward with.
So then use that as like your North Star
and what does that one technology connect you
and sort of like start filtering from there.
- Yeah, I think that's actually really good advice.
I haven't thought about it like that
because it's, I've heard the case of like,
well, you don't wanna go towards the new apps
because they're brand new
and maybe the ones that have been out there for a while
don't have the latest and greatest features.
But, and again, I'm just clarifying for the audience
what you've said, Nicky is like,
think about it where, hey,
what kind of data isn't capturing?
Where is it hosting that data?
Is it able to then transfer that data
to other tools that you're currently using?
And probably what's probably most important
on all this is centralizing that in some place
so then you can have retention marketing strategy
on top of it, do I either right?
- Yeah, 'cause like what's the point in collecting it
if you can't use it?
Like, yeah, so what you know that all of these people
are returning this specific item,
but like if you can't do anything with that information,
like what really does it do for your brand
at the end of the day?
- And maybe that's a good point for even the technology
companies that are listening here.
And again, like I work for a technology company
but it's super important to make sure yet
you can capture all the data,
but if you don't share that
and offer the ability to share that with other tools,
like you're just, you're losing clients
if that's the way that clients
are supposed to be thinking about it.
- Totally, and like just having the ability
to use the information
or push the information somewhere else,
like even if it takes you an extra step
to be able to do it, like as a technology
being able to provide your merchant
with the information that they can then use somewhere else
is so beneficial to them
because it's sort of one of those things,
like it's when you find a tool
that actually like you can push information
and pull information back and forth
between the two, like you have just
sort of like secured your livelihood
almost like with a merchant
because like you are now the most profitable piece
of technology that they have
because you are collecting data
and you're giving the data to somebody else.
Like it's so smart as a technology to be able to do that.
- Yeah, let me kind of follow up with one more topic
and it's around, obviously this is AI
and CX Virtual Summit.
I want this topic to be more around
customer experience right now.
How do you align again customer experience with retention?
Like are those almost the same words for you
at the end of the day?
Like, and then also the clients that are yours right now,
what does customer experience mean to them?
And how important is it in their
retention marketing philosophy?
- Yeah, I think it probably differs
based on size of brand and sort of like the ability
and the team structure that they have
and things like that.
Obviously when you're talking to a smaller team,
when you talk about doing a strategy
or implementing something that they think
is gonna create more customer service tickets
or create more feedback from a customer, right?
Because you're asking for information to them,
they immediately are like,
oh, well I don't wanna do that
because it's now gonna be more work for me
and I only have one person manning it.
So I think it's sort of like aligning your strategy
to your capabilities.
Obviously there are CX tools
that you can sort of like create macros for
and you can really like auto respond to a lot of people
based on like what you've asked them
to like send you an email for or whatever.
But I think it really does depend on the brand.
We have a lot of brands that they find it very important
to do like the one to one personal touch.
And I personally think that that is a wonderful strategy.
The one to one personal touch
and that one to one personal touch
can still be an automated message,
but it should be signed from a person.
And when they respond to that email,
should go to that person's inbox.
So for instance, like if your CX person's name is Anna,
like in a flow as they're not converting,
like Anna writes them this email, it's like,
hey, this is Anna, I lead our customer service team.
Like how can I help you?
I've noticed you still haven't purchased,
respond to this email and I can help you make that decision.
That should go to Anna's inbox
or Anna should be the one responding, right?
So I think it's like you can have sort of like a mixture
of both like automated messaging and a personalized touch
in order to sort of like convert your customer,
but it's all about implementing it properly
and making sure that like, I don't know,
Brian, I think we spoke about this before,
if you're an AI, and your celebrity
is like texting you or responding to you,
nobody's gonna buy it.
So like just make it personal and like make it
if you're putting in the effort,
like make it personal and make it more--
- We did talk about this.
- Yeah.
- But let me pretend I'm a client right now
and I ask you, okay, that's all great,
but honestly, how do you scale that?
Like I only have two CX people on my team,
I can't be actually emailing and able to respond
to every one of them.
Like what's your answer to that?
- Yeah, I think it's so you shouldn't have
to like do automated messaging
like in every single one of your flows, right?
But like let's pick the most impactful flows
that's gonna help you for your bottom line.
So Brian, like if you are doing browse abandonment,
if you have a browse abandonment flow set up
and you've noticed that somebody is browsing your website,
they have an intent to purchase
or even an abandoned cart, they have an intent to purchase.
If they still have not recovered their cart
from these email flows that you've set up,
it's probably gonna be more impactful for you
to email those people and find out like,
"Hey, how can I help you?"
The influx isn't gonna be large,
it's not gonna be like you're sending a welcome email
that's like, "Hey, let me help you choose your product."
These people have actually viewed something,
they have the intent to purchase,
they're really close to being a purchaser.
So those are the people that you should focus on,
not like the everybody.
So I think like it is scalable
as long as you choose to do it in the appropriate channels
and like in the appropriate flows as well.
- I love it.
And thanks for getting in the weeds with me there.
I think that's like something that the audience
just wants to know exactly.
'Cause I've proved that so many times where it's like,
okay, yep, you gotta personalize it.
And of course like you want to,
as you scale your company, right?
And maybe I'm wrong here, but as if you scale your company,
you still want to maintain what got you there
in the first place and you were probably super personal
in the first place, but it's really, really difficult to do that.
- Yeah, and I think the important thing to remember too
is like if you the sound or like if you're the face
of your brand and people know that you're the face of the brand,
I don't even necessarily think it has to come from you.
I think just knowing that somebody from your brand
is reaching out to the prospect of the customer
and like they're willing to help them make the purchase,
that also goes towards your brand and who you are
and the people that you're hiring
and that you care about them
because you're making sure that the people
that are working at your brand also care about them.
So it doesn't necessarily need to be
face of the brand, head of the brand.
As long as it's coming from somebody personal at the brand,
it's not gonna matter to that, the customer.
- Right.
- But maybe actually, last thing here and add to this,
because maybe I'm right or wrong,
but it's like whatever the founders' personality is,
like how they talk their voice, their tone,
what they represent, it's not, try to still take that
and blend that into those responses.
Maybe it's not coming from the founder,
but still that tone is the same
throughout that entire experience.
- Totally.
And I think like most of the time
when you're hiring a customer service team,
like the brand or the founder,
you probably are very specific
on how they're talking about the products
or how they're talking to the customers.
Use that and continue that through, right?
Whenever you're communicating with your client
or your customer, but I think it is really important
that like regardless of who it comes from,
like it sounds authentic
and it doesn't sound automated if that sounds weird
or is it automated, but it does sound authentic
and it sounds personal.
I think that's the biggest thing, sounding personal,
that is what's gonna convert somebody.
- Love it.
- And again, Nikki, thanks for kind of hitting on
a whole bunch of things during this session.
A lot of takeaways for the audience.
Thank you so much for your time.
- Thank you, have a great one.
Happy holidays.
- Thanks everyone.
Yes, happy holidays.
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