Rejection to Retention: The Self-Made Success Story

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(upbeat music)

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- My name is Jess Servion,

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and I'm super excited to bring you my new podcast,

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The Juice With Jess.

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This podcast is gonna be about everything

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in your customer's journey.

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We're talking acquisition, awareness, making that purchase,

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retaining that customer, bringing them back around,

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and everything in between.

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This is gonna be all about delivering dope brand experiences

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and talking to some really amazing people

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who are in the customer experience space,

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the marketing space, and everything in between.

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(upbeat music)

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- Welcome back to another episode

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with The Juice With Jess Servion.

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I'm Jess Servion.

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I don't know why I just called out my name, but here we are.

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This week, I am joined by a very special guest

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and dear friend of mine, also mentor of mine, Eli Wise.

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Eli, do you want to give the audience

0:58

a little bit of background of who you are?

1:00

- Yeah, well, first of all, thank you.

1:02

I feel like this is a long time coming.

1:04

We've been on the podcast circuit for a minute.

1:08

We haven't done anything together, so this is fun.

1:09

I did have you on the down-to-chat circuit,

1:13

so that was fun.

1:14

A little bit about me,

1:16

I kind of just, a kid from Jersey

1:20

that went with his gut a whole bunch of times,

1:22

and luckily, it's been working all right.

1:27

If you told me 10 years ago,

1:28

I'd have any sort of meaningful job

1:31

in any meaningful company.

1:32

I think you're crazy.

1:33

I somehow grew up in a small Orthodox world,

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number two is 10.

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I never graduated high school,

1:42

never went to college, did my GD in my early 20s,

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and kind of started my career in D2C.

1:51

First I had a Kickstarter brand,

1:52

which we can get into more details,

1:54

and then subsequently at brands like Ollie Pop and Jones Road,

1:57

and now I've switched onto the dark side,

2:00

and I switched to SaaS a couple of months ago

2:03

at a small company called the Yappo.

2:05

(laughs)

2:06

- Very tiny guy, you know?

2:08

- Yeah. - Yeah.

2:09

Okay, there's nothing wrong with the dark side, straight up.

2:13

Let's just start there, okay?

2:16

I just wanna say that sometimes in your career,

2:20

you switch back and forth between B2B and B2C.

2:23

My career for anybody who doesn't know this,

2:26

yes, predominantly has been an e-commerce,

2:29

I've worked at festivals,

2:30

I've done a lot of fractional roles

2:31

with some really dope brands, Tastelude, kind of,

2:34

(laughs)

2:36

kind of Tastelude, and Fat Milk,

2:40

and very like fun CBG companies,

2:42

but my background is actually from B2B.

2:44

I used to be in SaaS,

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and now I'm also back in SaaS as well.

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I am the VP of content marketing and advocacy

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at Customer with a K, right?

3:00

So point is, right?

3:02

You switch back and forth, and there's nothing wrong with it.

3:05

So let's just start there.

3:07

What, you don't have to tell me like the things that happen,

3:10

but like how has that transition been from you

3:14

to go from B2C to B2B,

3:15

especially in e-com enablement?

3:17

- It's been interesting.

3:18

So my entire career started by me needing a job very badly.

3:23

I was dating my wife with my girlfriend at the time,

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and she was double majoring, and I had no education.

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I was just like, I'm an absolute loser,

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I should find something to do.

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And the first job I found was an e-com,

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and the first job I found was in customer service,

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and it ended up being 15 other parts of the business,

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but I started an e-com because that's where my career

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started, that's what I fell into.

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I was always excited about the convergence of CX and retention.

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I think the most interesting thing,

3:51

and you're catching me on a good day here,

3:52

is like the most interesting thing is kind of,

3:55

this idea that on the brand side,

3:57

everyone's so nice and respectful,

3:59

and you think that everyone in this industry

4:01

is like friends with you because you're working

4:02

at a cool brand, and then one day you switch

4:04

your Twitter profile, and all of a sudden you enter

4:07

a very, very different ecosystem

4:10

of kind of like this sharky, crazy, chaotic B2B world.

4:14

And I think what's interesting to me is,

4:17

I've always been a person that just because something

4:19

is some way, it doesn't mean you can't change that.

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Most of the, you know, I have not shut up about CX

4:24

and how low the bar is since I started in this industry,

4:27

and we've made like you and I,

4:29

and everyone else in this industry has made so much change

4:34

in CX, and like due to C brands

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that didn't give a shit about it six months ago,

4:37

five years ago, 10 years ago, now care,

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and jumping into SaaS, you know, I was like,

4:41

"Wow, people are rude."

4:43

And somebody's like, "Yeah, dude."

4:44

They're like, "Welcome."

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And I'm like, "Sir, just because you've been in this

4:47

"for five, 10, 15, 20 years, doesn't mean it's gonna be

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"like this for the next 20."

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And it's been my biggest challenge is like,

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how can we just be kinder to one another?

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Like there's enough business for everyone.

4:57

- Yeah.

4:58

- And that's like, if I had to think about my next 12 months,

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it's like, yeah, super focused on YAPO,

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how we build a fantastic perception around the future

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and what we're trying to build,

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but also how can we make this a kinder place

5:13

for everyone, not just for brands, but for providers.

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Like, you know, we're providing E.com

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SaaS enablement for businesses.

5:20

If they don't like it, they don't have to be a customer.

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If they do, we'll make it a great place to be.

5:25

So I'm like a weird breath of fresh air

5:27

that everyone wants to spit out.

5:29

- Yeah.

5:30

I have a lot of thoughts there.

5:31

I mean, I think the biggest thing is like, okay,

5:34

so I said like, I've been in B2B

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and then I came to B2C and then like I'm back to B2B,

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but I'm still in B2C.

5:39

Like honestly, I'm like all over the place.

5:42

I still maintain the operator in Wiffer E.com brands.

5:45

I'm still doing like these things for customer.

5:48

But my point is that it's like,

5:50

there's nothing wrong with CX leaders

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for us to flip back and forth.

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There's like absolutely nothing wrong with it.

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But I think that, and I want to get your opinion on this,

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do you think that we're like,

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we want to make the space a big safer

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and you know, less assholes, like all this stuff

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because we're CX leaders and like we're empathetic.

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And it's like our.

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- It's possible.

6:10

I mean, I think something that comes up over and over and over

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is you know, when I started in the space,

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which is like nine, 10 years ago,

6:17

D2C Twitter was just growth guys.

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And it was just growth guys.

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And I think we still suffer tremendously

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as an industry of not enough diversity.

6:27

Tremendously. - Absolutely.

6:28

- Big time. - Absolutely.

6:30

They're like, you do not know how many events

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that I go to that is just predominantly men

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and not enough people of color, not enough women at them.

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Like I went to a dinner last night

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that was literally 98% men and 2% women.

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And I was part of that 2%.

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- This and this breeds this chaotic insane behavior

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of you know, we see misogynistic outlandish behavior,

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which is basically this idea that this started as a,

7:02

as a frat house of a bunch of,

7:05

a bunch of dudes running growth marketing.

7:07

And I think in order for us, yes, it has to do with,

7:10

I'm a softy.

7:11

I like when people are nice, like sue me.

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Like I like when people are nice to me.

7:14

And it's like, oh, you're not raw enough

7:17

what to sell SMS software?

7:19

Like we're just slinging SaaS.

7:21

We're just trying to help brands.

7:22

Like I've been on the brand side.

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I'm trying to help brands like myself.

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Like people like myself, I'm trying to help you market better.

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I'm trying to help you retain your customers better.

7:30

You don't have to like the tool, but you do have to be nice.

7:33

- Yeah. - And I can force you to,

7:34

but I think the wider we make this tent,

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the more alternative voices we bring in,

7:40

the more diverse the events we create are,

7:42

the one dinner I ever hosted,

7:44

I was like, I'm not coming to this dinner

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unless we have 50 plus percent women.

7:47

Like, and yes, we can do a lot better.

7:51

But I think yes, it has to do with the fact that we're CX,

7:53

but it's also the DNA of a lot of this industry

7:56

has to change meaningfully over the next.

7:59

- No, absolutely.

8:00

And I think, and to be honest with you,

8:02

I don't think it's just us.

8:04

I think it's us voicing this

8:06

and actually talking about these things.

8:08

So we can make that change, right?

8:10

Like, I'm doubling down this year on more women's events.

8:13

Like, I'm gonna be posting a women's event

8:16

with Nicole from Recharge and Dylan, Yapo, right?

8:20

That's going to be enabling women in the commerce space,

8:25

whether you're B2B or B2C, it doesn't matter, right?

8:28

And I think that not just like women doing this,

8:32

we also need more men to do this for women

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and to show up for us.

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When there's something that's nasty on the internet,

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on a Twitter thread and somebody's newsletter,

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more men need to show up to the plate.

8:44

- I fully agree.

8:46

On the first part, please, I know you're already working

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with Dylan who's fantastic, but Eli, on the Yapo side,

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like we all want, we all share the same vision

8:57

around creating events that are different

8:59

and more meaningful in a lot of different ways.

9:02

So we'll talk afterwards about like,

9:04

how can we do more of this together?

9:05

'Cause we're on the same page here.

9:07

It's like we've seen the same thing over and over and over.

9:09

And if we want to shift culturally,

9:12

there's a lot of change that has to happen.

9:15

But six weeks in, I'm questioning daily.

9:20

I'm like, am I a moron?

9:21

Or are people really obnoxious for no reason?

9:24

- No.

9:25

I mean, dude, absolutely.

9:26

Like the last point I'll make for the audience

9:29

and we'll transition to more like CX and retention things.

9:33

But Eli and I right now are on a little bit of our crusade.

9:38

The last thing that I will say is like,

9:39

I've also experienced that not even just like in

9:44

across B2B, like multiple companies I have experienced

9:48

where salespeople or people internally,

9:52

they like are slanging the product itself,

9:56

but they don't actually understand what the customer needs.

9:59

And like that's the point of these advocacy roles.

10:02

That's the point of this, of the roles that Eli and I

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are doing within customer and YAPO

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is not only for the external outfacing of understanding

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like, hey, this tool is really dope

10:12

and like you really should use it

10:13

and gassing up like the companies that we work for,

10:16

but also for advocacy within the company itself.

10:19

Because in order to sell your product,

10:21

it doesn't matter if you're an SMS tool, a CRM tool

10:24

or I don't know man, like a pop up tool, right?

10:27

Your core of your problem,

10:29

it should always be what the customer wants and needs.

10:32

So if you're selling something,

10:33

if you're in the customer's success side,

10:35

you're supporting it, you, yes, need to protect the company,

10:39

but you also need to understand

10:40

that you are enabling your customer to do better.

10:43

So what does my customer ultimately want all the time?

10:47

And like, and again, again, the purpose of us

10:50

on our crusade for multiple different things,

10:53

you know, women like more diversity,

10:57

but also at the core of it all,

10:58

it's for customers and that tool

11:02

to sling to that customer in a more meaningful way.

11:06

- Well, no, the last few things I'll say on this

11:09

is number one, a lot of this chaos started

11:12

because brand, you know, SaaS companies

11:15

were competing against the same 10 customers,

11:17

but instead of talking about the customer's problem,

11:19

they were talking about here's why X sucks.

11:22

And they were taking a shit on other companies.

11:25

And part of my motivation here and yours as well

11:28

is how can we shift again to your point,

11:29

talk more about customers.

11:31

And that will create a space

11:32

where we're not taking a shit on other providers.

11:34

We're saying here's why yup,

11:36

how can help solve your problems?

11:37

If you want to go with Sendlane, PostScript, attentive,

11:41

- Great. - Totally fine.

11:43

Totally, totally fine.

11:44

By shifting sales that way,

11:46

we're creating a space that's more meaningful for,

11:48

yeah, there are certain customers that are great for you,

11:50

certain that are best for us.

11:51

There's enough, like, let's think about this

11:53

in a wider, more,

11:58

what's the word for it?

11:59

And like, more wider way where we understand

12:02

that there's enough for everyone.

12:04

And I think that's probably phase one of like,

12:06

how can we be more kind to one another

12:08

and we can compete, but we're both competing

12:11

in a way that we want customers

12:12

to have a better relationship with their customers.

12:15

Right, yeah, absolutely.

12:17

I mean, absolutely.

12:18

And yeah, so as much as like,

12:21

these tools are enabling for your customer

12:24

or for whatever your mission is for the company.

12:27

Also, there has to be a piece of the enablement internally

12:31

and the advocacy for the customer.

12:34

Hence why our roles have come up in the space.

12:37

And the last point, which actually will lead me

12:40

to my next piece of this,

12:42

is it's all about community building

12:45

that we're doing here too.

12:47

So it's not just about like, okay,

12:49

we're gonna go and like, do these events

12:51

or we're gonna do these things.

12:52

It's also community building internally.

12:54

It's at events, it's at conferences,

12:56

it's at like digital spaces.

12:59

And one of the things that I wanna get to is Eli,

13:04

you started a Discord, a CX Discord

13:06

that has how many members now?

13:07

- A bunch, right?

13:08

- A bunch, it's over a thousand.

13:10

I'm a moderator.

13:11

- Yeah, 1200.

13:12

1200.

13:13

- Yeah, it's gotta be, right?

13:14

But the cool thing about this Discord in particular

13:17

is one of the things that like Eli and I met a long time ago

13:22

and we like had a conversation and we were like,

13:24

there's no space for like D2C people, right?

13:26

And then he decided to like build this Discord

13:29

and now it's has like 1200 plus.

13:31

I'm a moderator in it,

13:33

but the cool thing about this is that there is B2B

13:36

and B2C in this community

13:38

and everybody solving problems together, right?

13:41

And I think that that's really cool.

13:44

Like that's the beginning of like building community

13:47

amongst everybody.

13:49

- So to your point,

13:50

like the beauty of moderation and you know,

13:55

there's a lot of noise around, you know, how,

13:59

it's a public square.

13:59

You can say whatever you want.

14:01

Yes, but not in our Discord.

14:04

And we try very hard, again, I'm a softie.

14:08

I like having places that everyone feels safe in.

14:12

And it was really important, you know,

14:14

the few rules that we set up when we created this Discord,

14:16

like I literally just went on Discord,

14:18

I'm like, start Discord, never done this,

14:20

but okay, I reached out to a couple of people like,

14:22

you know, and said, hey, can you hop in

14:24

as help me moderate this and build this?

14:26

And all of a sudden, again, it's like 1200 CX leaders

14:29

and then CX kind of like adjacent B2B, et cetera.

14:32

And the few rules were number one, no slinging.

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We're not here to sell, we're here to help.

14:38

Again, like if your tool solves a perfect problem,

14:41

that's okay, but no slinging.

14:43

And number two, be kind.

14:44

Like we don't allow assholes.

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And I think that that set up a framework

14:49

and like bringing in good people and bringing nice people

14:52

and the amount of jobs that I've helped,

14:54

I'm sure you've helped people find through this Discord

14:56

alone, like we have a job board.

14:58

We've probably placed like 20 or 30 CX leaders

15:00

at fantastic companies, Brightland,

15:02

you know, like some of these like incredible Mofoku,

15:06

like these incredible brands

15:07

were able to place people from this Discord,

15:10

but also a space where like, I created this

15:13

because I hate leaving my house.

15:15

I want to create a network without ever leaving my house.

15:17

And it's like, how do I make a space

15:18

where people know who I am?

15:20

And I'll create more opportunity for myself

15:22

and for everyone else without having to go to events

15:24

every night.

15:25

And it did turn into like, we went axe throwing.

15:28

- Oh yeah, we got it. - Couple of weeks ago, right?

15:30

So it's been-- - Shout out to customer

15:32

and flip CX and pod pitch and Ciena.

15:35

- Ciena, so it's been meaningful, right?

15:37

To like be able to do this IRL too,

15:38

but creating a space with like intentionality

15:42

and kindness is taken for granted, but is super meaningful.

15:47

- Yeah, no absolutely.

15:49

Well, okay, let's switch gears.

15:51

Let's talk about CX and retention.

15:53

So in particular with this Discord, right?

15:55

Like there's so many individuals on this.

15:57

There's so many like tools.

15:59

There's so many brands.

16:00

And I'm curious from you,

16:02

have you like bringing in these individuals into this space

16:07

and building it as much and like in being like a CX

16:10

and retention guru,

16:12

did have you individually learned anything

16:15

that has changed your retention strategy

16:18

from like what stands out to you

16:20

from any of those individuals in the Discord?

16:23

- Yeah, well, first of all, very kind.

16:25

I don't feel like a guru at all.

16:27

I feel like I've learned more in the last 10 years than most.

16:32

I think that something that I've been challenged

16:35

a lot in my career is imposter syndrome

16:37

and feeling like I'm a one trick pony.

16:39

Like, oh, you've only done X

16:40

or you can only do Y,

16:42

which kind of got me to this quarter life crisis

16:45

of jumping into a different,

16:47

completely tearing down everything I've built

16:48

and starting again in a, well,

16:50

somewhat argue otherwise, but theoretically.

16:53

And something I've learned over the last 10 years

16:55

is how shockingly it's whatever industry you're in,

16:59

it's always the same, right?

17:00

It's always like deeply understand

17:02

who your customers are, mission number one.

17:04

Mission number two, deeply understand what motivates

17:06

and what they're excited about.

17:07

Mission number three is try to solve problems.

17:09

I think most brands, especially founders,

17:12

like I find that most founders I talk to

17:14

have a giant ego and maybe you need that

17:16

in order to create a large brand,

17:19

but they feel so strongly about like,

17:22

no, I'm solving this problem.

17:23

And then you're like, wait, are you sure

17:25

that's a problem?

17:26

They're like, well, we have product market fit.

17:27

Okay, but cool, but do people understand

17:28

the problem the same way you do?

17:30

Or are they just feeling like this solves

17:31

a different problem that you don't completely get?

17:34

So I've learned that is that like it takes humility

17:37

and it takes talking to customers,

17:38

creating a space where customers can actually

17:40

provide feedback and that it's not much different.

17:43

Like whether you're in, like we have people

17:45

on the Discord that are selling like,

17:46

grass seed and people that are selling like auto parts

17:52

and people that are in food and beverage

17:54

and people that are slinging sass.

17:56

And we're all solving the same problem.

17:58

We're like trying to understand their customers'

18:01

values needs and solving it, which sounds very elementary,

18:04

but I guess I'm not a guru, you see him learn.

18:07

- You are a guru.

18:08

Listen, you are a guru and I think that,

18:10

I mean, I've personally learned a lot from you.

18:12

Like me switching from B2B into B2C,

18:15

like you were literally my mentor.

18:17

You were the first like Nick Sharma intro'd me to you

18:22

and I was such a huge fan of like your work, right?

18:25

And even though I might have like years of experience already,

18:29

I didn't have B2C experience and I think it was really

18:33

important for me to like learn specifically in B2C.

18:36

I do, and so like you are guru, I think that like,

18:39

thank you for being a mentor to me and me being,

18:42

like a mentee to you.

18:43

But I think you make a very valid point.

18:48

At the end of the day,

18:48

like when you look at customer experience

18:50

and you look at retention, right?

18:52

The strategies all differ by the audience

18:55

because your customer is like a different customer,

18:58

might have different needs, might have different ones.

19:01

But the core of everything that you're doing

19:04

is you have your pillars and it's all the same.

19:07

It's all the same, whether you're on the B2B side

19:09

or the B2C side, right?

19:10

Whether it's like let's just use a B2B to B2C, right?

19:14

B2B is very focused on what is that user's journey?

19:18

Where's the friction in that journey?

19:20

And how do I get this user to adopt my product

19:23

without friction, right?

19:24

And then if you look at B2C,

19:26

it's the same thing in a way, right?

19:28

Like yes, I might have this product

19:30

and I have this beautiful like brand logo on it,

19:34

colors like whatever it is, right?

19:36

That is a user journey.

19:37

If somebody picking up, I'm like, pretend this is a cup, okay?

19:40

Like if I'm looking at this cup

19:43

and I'm saying like, oh, this cup is really beautiful,

19:47

it has this very like particular things

19:49

in a part of this cup,

19:51

that is a journey within that product, right?

19:55

And then you take it to the website.

19:57

Okay, how do you build brand loyalty?

19:58

A website has a user's journey,

20:00

has an entire experience between the awareness,

20:04

to making the purchase, to in the checkout

20:07

and then post purchase.

20:08

These are all user journeys

20:10

that are also very similar to B2B.

20:12

So my point is, right?

20:13

B2B, B2C, no matter what kind of customer experience

20:17

or retention plan that you're looking at,

20:18

your pillars are all the same.

20:20

It just differs by the audience.

20:22

And I think what's really important,

20:24

going back to the mentor mentee space,

20:26

is that we don't all have the answers.

20:29

We don't all have the answers.

20:30

And I think that we really,

20:31

whether no matter which space you're on,

20:34

you should be looking outside of yourself

20:35

and looking at other brands and like,

20:38

oh, that's a really dope experience.

20:40

Okay, maybe I can incorporate that,

20:41

something into my brand experience.

20:44

Or maybe it's even like post script, for instance,

20:47

has a really awesome customer service

20:51

and success program.

20:52

They're really good at being brand strategist alongside you.

20:56

They are B2B to B2C company, right?

20:59

Or I'm sorry, a e-common enablement company, right?

21:03

That, but their customer experience journey

21:05

is very service oriented, very much being a strategist.

21:08

Why couldn't you apply being a strategist

21:11

to your, I don't know, soda brand, right?

21:14

Like you can apply those principles into your sport.

21:18

My point is, my point is, is that it's net,

21:21

like we all have our different strategies,

21:23

we all have our different retention plans as well,

21:26

but like at the core of it,

21:27

our customers are all the same.

21:28

And there's no necessarily like copying of one another.

21:32

It's just let's all be kind to each other

21:35

and learn from each other.

21:36

That is my point.

21:37

I landed the plane on my tangent.

21:40

(laughs)

21:41

I don't know, what do you think, Eli?

21:42

- No, I think that we just have to be really, really clear

21:46

that we start with the customer.

21:48

We start with understanding the customer's problems

21:51

and we try to build solutions in a meaningful way.

21:54

And the best experience slash product slash,

21:58

what have you will win?

22:00

And that's that.

22:02

I think it's like a cross every, across every industry.

22:05

Yeah.

22:06

- Yeah.

22:07

Okay.

22:08

So one question that I have for you though.

22:10

So beyond birthdays and the obvious ways of surprising

22:16

and delighting your customer and like, you know,

22:19

giving like retaining them in those like manners,

22:22

what do you think are unique ways to leverage data

22:25

in personalizing your customer experience?

22:28

'Cause now we're on the BV.

22:29

So we got to, we got to be talking about data.

22:31

- Yeah.

22:32

Yeah.

22:33

I mean, I love the question and something that I've been

22:36

talking about for a while.

22:38

I remember being asked this in maybe 2020 on a podcast

22:41

was like, what is the next billion dollar idea?

22:43

I think it was Caitlin on the customer whisper.

22:46

It was like, what's the next billion dollar idea in e-commerce?

22:48

And I think it's this exact idea that we have so much

22:52

customer data, but we do nothing with it.

22:55

Like birthdays is like, oh, we're asking you your birthday.

22:57

We're sending you something cute.

22:58

But what's more meaningful than that is understanding

23:01

every move the customer made,

23:02

something that we see SaaS do well on like ABM

23:06

for the SaaS folks is like, you know, like we know exactly

23:08

which landing page they hit and like,

23:10

if they took a demo, if they didn't take a demo

23:12

and we're so meticulous about walking customers

23:14

through this funnel, and I think from a D2C perspective,

23:17

we have so much data.

23:19

So for example, we know if the customer left a positive

23:23

review or a negative review, we know if they're tier X

23:26

on the loyalty program, we know if they're subscribed

23:29

to email SMS, we know what they've purchased

23:30

on the past, we know if they're subscribed to a product

23:34

with your subscription.

23:35

So like, we have all these data points on their behavior,

23:38

but we also, if we ask if we use Octane or we,

23:41

whatever survey, we understand so many data points

23:43

about the customer, both from behavior

23:45

and from what they like in this, like,

23:47

and then even double clicking into that,

23:49

we know what emails they opened, we know what they clicked.

23:52

Right, so we have such a detailed buyer journey,

23:54

we do nothing with it.

23:55

Most brands just don't scratch the surface.

23:57

The biggest problem, right, and this was like,

23:59

this is not a long wind of Yup-Hoe pitch,

24:01

but this is how I ended up at Yup-Hoe.

24:03

The biggest problem is that there's nothing,

24:04

there's no meaningful way to accelerate usage on that data.

24:07

Right, there's no meaningful way where you can say like,

24:09

okay, take a cut, you can create 900 segments

24:12

and you can create custom properties in Play-Vio

24:14

that pull from all different places,

24:16

but to be able to have all that thing in one place

24:18

and talk to AI and say, hey, sending this campaign,

24:22

it's about our new soda that's launching next week,

24:25

give me an idea of the 10 most meaningful segments

24:28

and go as detailed as you possibly can.

24:29

Imagine querying that data with like a chat GBT in overlay

24:33

and saying like, make the 10 most meaningful segments,

24:36

I don't wanna send to more than 10,000 people,

24:38

I want you to get to the 10,000 people

24:40

that you think will make the purchase next.

24:42

And that is basically saying like,

24:43

skip 900 of the emails you would have sent

24:47

and just send 100 to the perfect customer

24:50

with the right message at the right time,

24:52

that is every retention person/customer experience

24:54

person's dream and there's zero way to do that today

24:58

because A, you don't have all the data in one place,

25:00

B, you don't have an overlay that can do that for you.

25:03

I think that this is my very long-winded reason

25:07

as to why I ended up on the SAS side

25:09

because I think this is the biggest opportunity to come

25:11

but it's also a reason why people spend way too much money

25:15

on SMS, right?

25:16

So email, it's like, yeah, whether you're paying

25:19

for the list or you're paying for whatever,

25:20

like you're not really paying per email you send

25:22

most of the time with most providers.

25:24

With some you do, some you don't, but with SMS,

25:28

there's not a single provider, you're not paying per SMS.

25:30

And imagine I told you, you can send 10% of the messages

25:33

and make the same revenue because we know

25:35

who's gonna click and purchase.

25:36

- Yeah.

25:37

And so this is the YAPO tool,

25:39

like are they utilizing like AI for this?

25:41

- So this is like, this is the current slash six

25:45

to 12 months of YAPO, whereas like, you know,

25:47

yes, they have Taylor, which is like AI querying

25:51

when you build segmentation on email SMS.

25:54

The Taylor is, you're gonna see it across multiple different

25:58

portions of the YAPO experience, but I think also the overlay

26:03

of like having one place that you can query all the data.

26:06

So what, you know, it's currently a retention dashboard.

26:08

It'll continue to be this retention platform

26:11

where you can query all the data.

26:13

And again, it's like everything else here is noise.

26:15

You can choose whoever you want to sling.

26:17

It's just SMS, it doesn't matter.

26:19

You can use whoever you want for email.

26:21

I don't care.

26:22

- Yeah.

26:23

- And to be quite frank, almost nobody cares.

26:25

Who you like your providers on tech doesn't say anything

26:28

about you.

26:29

- Yeah.

26:29

- My goal and YAPO's goal, and I'm speaking for myself here.

26:32

So I'll remove the YAPO's goal.

26:33

My goal is to create the most incredible seamless experience

26:37

for retention operators to be able to sling the correct

26:40

messages to the right person and deeply understand action

26:43

before the customer even knows their action.

26:46

- Yeah.

26:47

- So that it feels, imagine you walk into a store

26:49

and they're like, just not to be really, really weird,

26:52

but I know exactly what you want today.

26:53

So let me just take you there.

26:55

- Yeah.

26:55

- And not have to drive you through 500 different emails

26:58

cross selling every tool in the universe.

27:00

Something we've done very basic at Jones was we said,

27:02

"We know that if you purchase X with like an 80 something

27:06

percent likelihood, you're probably going to purchase Y.

27:09

So why send you through 900 emails?

27:11

Let's just take you exactly where we know

27:13

you're probably going to go.

27:14

- Yeah.

27:14

- Imagine that at scale.

27:15

- Yeah.

27:16

- And again, I'd love for everyone to build this.

27:19

- Yeah.

27:20

- This is not like a, this is what I believe is the future

27:23

of retention.

27:24

- Yeah.

27:25

- And I like that world.

27:26

- Yeah.

27:26

- And Google is telling us, yeah, you're kind of going

27:29

in that direction with the changes.

27:31

Yahoo saying like, yeah, you're kind of, we're over spamming.

27:33

Get a couple of unsubs and you're on the shit list.

27:36

And as email marketers, we're still like, no, no, no,

27:38

full send, sling.

27:39

- I hate the full send, like stop full sending.

27:42

Hot take, my friends, just to reiterate in my own words,

27:46

right?

27:47

It's the same hot take.

27:48

I'm going to be honest with you.

27:49

Segment your audience.

27:50

For the love of God, please segment your audience.

27:53

Stop spamming every email person.

27:56

Stop spamming every SMS person.

27:59

Save yourself some money.

28:00

Save your customer experience because if you're

28:03

continuously spamming the same people,

28:05

they will unsubscribe.

28:07

That's my hot take.

28:09

Leading to this, actually, this,

28:11

what's really interesting about Eli mentioning this,

28:16

this personalization is this is a very much a hot take

28:20

from you because a couple of years ago,

28:22

you were not about the AI life.

28:24

You were not about the AI life.

28:26

It was like very scary.

28:27

And I think we can jointly say this now, right?

28:32

AI is not coming for your fucking job.

28:34

AI is not coming for your fucking job.

28:35

AI is going to make your life easier.

28:37

And if we need to get to a level of personalization

28:41

and continuously personalizing your users experience

28:44

so that they can want to keep purchasing your product,

28:47

adopt your features, whatever it is,

28:50

we need to embrace it and utilize it

28:53

for our retention plans, our customer experience plans,

28:57

customer success, sales plans, whatever plans it is,

29:00

we need to utilize that personalization

29:02

because you cannot scale without the ability

29:06

of utilizing tech and tools to do so.

29:09

100%.

29:10

I'm going to sit here today and say that I'm always

29:14

excited and willing and able to be proven wrong

29:16

at almost everything, as you know.

29:18

And AI is one of the many things that UI has been completely,

29:21

completely wrong on some of the aspects of.

29:24

And I think that to your point,

29:25

like I dream about,

29:29

this sounds kind of outrageous,

29:31

me dreaming about a day in time or a vision.

29:34

But basically this, the beauty of e-com

29:39

when it comes to messaging is imagine

29:40

Wayfair didn't send you 30 emails.

29:42

Yes.

29:43

I just told you exactly what you wanted.

29:45

Right?

29:46

But imagine getting an email about like,

29:49

we know that you bought this table.

29:51

People that bought this table bought one of these three chairs

29:54

with a 96% accuracy.

29:56

Just save me all the time.

29:58

But no, we want to send you 400 different emails

30:01

'cause we hope that you'll buy other things.

30:02

Now, even though the data's telling us otherwise,

30:04

the data's saying like,

30:05

there's less than 1% chance that you're going to buy

30:07

all the random shit thrown your way.

30:09

I just, I think that would be like a fun future for e-com.

30:12

And again, it would be a fun future for tools as well

30:15

because now they can create an ecosystem

30:18

where the tools give a higher ROI with a lower cost.

30:20

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30:26

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31:19

- I actually have a couple of questions in regards to AI,

31:23

but I wanna ask you this one first.

31:25

So we're talking a lot about data

31:27

and we're talking a lot about scaling

31:29

and like, okay, you have all this information,

31:31

but what if you're a brand that, or even a company,

31:35

like a SaaS company that's just starting out,

31:38

like your bootstrapped or maybe you were just like

31:40

in pre-seed, seed stages, like whatever,

31:44

and you don't have a lot of data about your customer.

31:46

Where do you see, not just in email marketing,

31:49

but where do you see AI being utilized

31:52

in the awareness piece of it?

31:53

- I'm probably the least poised answer

31:58

of this question in a meaningful way.

31:59

- It's fine.

32:00

- We're just talking.

32:01

- So I might skip.

32:02

- It's like literally just came up.

32:04

- I might skip.

32:04

I honestly don't know, I'm curious your point of view.

32:06

- Yeah.

32:07

I would love to see AI.

32:09

Well, one of the places that I've used it,

32:11

and this will actually, this is my next question for you,

32:13

one of the places that I've utilized AI

32:15

is actually in like sentiment analysis on social channels,

32:18

but less on the awareness piece, right?

32:21

So I am really interested to see like what the transitions

32:25

will be, like we don't have the answers for this straight up.

32:27

We don't have the answers for this,

32:28

but I'm interested to see what like the transitions will be

32:31

like, okay, well, we're talking about personalized agent,

32:33

your customer's experience and retention

32:35

and all of these things, but where will AI come into play

32:39

in the awareness and acquisition piece

32:41

and like social specifically, right?

32:43

Like how do you bridge the gap between social channels

32:47

into your website or wherever it is

32:50

that you want your journey to be or in your list, right?

32:53

Like I haven't seen a lot of innovation in that.

32:55

And like I'm really interested to see like how that,

32:58

what I've have seen is like bots on social channels

33:01

of like comment, I don't know, exercise.

33:04

And then like that influencers like sending you a plan

33:09

that I think that's really interesting.

33:10

But how do you, it'll be, I guess in my perfect world,

33:14

I would like to see some sort of AI,

33:15

like doing some sort of like bot situation

33:19

and building into lists.

33:21

- I think that's smart.

33:22

I think it's, I think AI is an interesting way to scale

33:27

something that already works, right?

33:28

Like the comment exercise and get whatever,

33:30

create your own plan, like that's super interesting.

33:32

I think that we've viewed AI as like either

33:35

to help one problem or help a different problem.

33:39

And to your point, like we haven't created a cohesive,

33:40

like here's how AI can help a customer go

33:42

through their entire journey with you as a brand.

33:45

In general, I'm very bullish on AI or tools

33:49

that can kind of connect dots.

33:52

- Yeah.

33:53

- I think the customer journey now is so siloed and broken

33:56

that I think if there's, it's almost like,

33:58

I dream about hand holding, like I just want,

34:01

like the wonderment/moloma post purchase

34:04

and then connect that to your journey pre-purchase

34:07

and the CX questions you had and kind of,

34:10

I would love a tool that can create, like,

34:13

I've seen a lot of things in SAS that were like,

34:15

"Oh, this is super interesting.

34:16

I wonder what that looks like in D2C."

34:18

So something that I've seen in SAS is kind of like

34:20

executive summaries where I can just grab a page

34:22

and learn everything about this account.

34:24

Like when they joined Yappo, if they churned Yappo,

34:27

did they have any experiences they didn't like with us

34:30

in an effort to try to better understand

34:31

what people love and hate?

34:32

I know what I hated about Yappo, like I've churned Yappo,

34:36

I know what I hated, but I'm always curious to see,

34:38

like, how can we make this experience better?

34:40

And I was like, what about an exec summary on customers

34:44

where I can just jump in and see like a AI synopsis of like,

34:49

it's almost like a one paragraph, like,

34:52

here's where they were, here's where they came from,

34:53

here's what they loved, here's what they hated,

34:55

they had four issues in the past,

34:57

each one was resolved in a meaningful way.

35:00

If they're pissed off, this is what they'd be pissed off

35:02

about and it's almost like, yeah, you're probably now having

35:04

like a CX associate jot that down and pass it along

35:07

to a director, but I think that's also like a fun way.

35:10

Any kind of sentiment that's detailed is fun.

35:14

And then kind of take that and we've seen a bunch of tools

35:18

that you can kind of like take that and tell you en masse,

35:22

like here are the five things that people love

35:25

or hate about your brands, like the Chattermel,

35:28

the Cinquely, all that stuff.

35:29

But yeah, that's on the AI.

35:32

Look at me talking about AI.

35:33

- I know, it's really weird.

35:35

Like our conversations literally used to just be like,

35:37

I'll leave pop.

35:39

Wait, we didn't even get into like your Kickstarter

35:41

to your role. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

35:44

- But yeah, no, I think what's really interesting

35:47

about AI, so like I told you like,

35:49

I wanted to get your perspective of like,

35:51

you know, the social awareness pieces of it,

35:54

but really I think what's interesting is,

35:58

you know, where I'd like to see more doubling down

35:59

is that sentiment analysis, because like what I do,

36:02

a lot of it for like my fractional clients

36:04

or like project based like CX things that I'm doing,

36:07

I build out like a really scrappy like Google Sheets

36:10

or Excel doc, right?

36:12

That takes like the analysis of like all of your tickets,

36:16

all of your CSAT, MPS, like any sort of like serving

36:19

touch points and like query it in like these Google Sheets

36:24

which eventually will run out, right?

36:26

But the point is though is that where I would like to see

36:32

more AI doubling down is that sentiment analysis 100%

36:37

and like an easier way to scale it,

36:39

but across multiple channels,

36:41

I actually posted this on LinkedIn today

36:43

about churn rate and retention rate

36:46

and then getting down to like a sentiment rate.

36:50

Like we don't have in the industry as a whole,

36:53

we do not have a sentiment score.

36:56

Think about it.

36:56

You have a sentiment score on your channels,

36:59

but you don't have a sentiment score on like one overall

37:04

cent, like customer sentiment, right?

37:06

- It's like NPS just like supercharged with AI.

37:09

- Supercharged with AI.

37:10

That's what I'm thinking, you know?

37:12

And then something I can like scrub like your Twitter feed

37:15

or your LinkedIn or all these places,

37:16

'cause this is all the stuff I used to do at Feastables.

37:18

Like you would literally have to manually

37:20

and they still do, God bless my CX-tam,

37:24

but they still literally go through tweet by tweet.

37:28

And like if the AI doesn't pick it up like accurately

37:32

and leaves it as like neutral sentiment,

37:35

then they're like manually tagging that a negative

37:37

or a neutral or positive.

37:39

Like I think there's a lot of advancements

37:41

that need to like still happen with it.

37:43

Anyway, I'm on a tangent, I apologize.

37:45

One question I do have since we're on this AI subject

37:48

and this is where we went.

37:51

Eli is on the AI side now.

37:54

Okay, let's switch to chatbots

37:57

'cause this is the ultimate fucking hot take for Eli.

38:02

When I met you, you fucking hated them.

38:06

And I was like, let's go, let's chatbot this,

38:10

let's automate as much as possible.

38:11

Where's your stance now?

38:13

- Would you hate me if it hasn't changed much?

38:16

- No, but I would love to get into the course of it.

38:18

- No, I think that AI has gotten better.

38:23

I think that GPT, whatever we're up to for.

38:28

- I call it chat GPT sometimes.

38:30

- Yeah, I've gotten a lot of people that call it that.

38:33

And I stopped fixing it 'cause I'm like,

38:35

it's not gonna keep me up at night.

38:36

But I think it's gotten meaningfully better.

38:39

I think the other important thing that's changed

38:43

is the ingesting of much more data more quickly.

38:47

So it's not just answering based on this one conversation,

38:51

it's answering based on the way that you've answered

38:53

historical but also on the 500 or 5,000 other conversations

38:57

that have come through.

38:58

And we've seen like CX tools or chatbot tools

39:01

that ingest much wider groups of information,

39:04

which I think just makes for a better experience.

39:06

I'm ultimately about whatever is the more meaningful

39:10

and scalable, thoughtful experience.

39:14

And I think AI has come a long way.

39:15

It's like my politically charged answer here.

39:17

(laughing)

39:19

- Right.

39:21

- Well, I mean, my opinion is that I think--

39:24

- They fucking rock.

39:25

- I love AI, I love chatbots.

39:28

Which I do, okay?

39:30

Like I've dealt with mass scale amount of tickets

39:34

that were literally I love Mr. Beast.

39:36

And like you want to engage with those conversations,

39:39

but it's like, how do you engage with those conversations?

39:41

It is so tough, right?

39:43

And like, I need to keep my agents free and clear

39:46

so they can actually do something

39:47

in the humanized experience, right?

39:49

- I saw Jess wearing a t-shirt the other day.

39:50

They said, I love chatbot.

39:52

- I love chatbot.

39:54

I love customers' chatbot.

39:55

- Yeah.

39:57

- So, okay, one, the portion of this,

40:00

so the hot take of it,

40:02

is that I think what we have seen with chatbots previously

40:06

is that they're very intent based.

40:08

Choose X to get to X information,

40:11

but not action based, right?

40:14

And I think that's where like,

40:16

the advancements truly will be.

40:17

I don't think it's coming

40:19

for your customer support agent's job.

40:21

Straight up, I don't think it's coming

40:23

for your support agent's jobs,

40:24

because you're still gonna need to humanize that experience

40:28

no matter what.

40:28

Like, I think that it can get to a point of actioning,

40:33

actually very like tier one stuff.

40:36

Like for instance, like a case study

40:37

that I was reading about is customer with sweet green.

40:41

When sweet greens app came out,

40:43

God bless my friend Jen for running that,

40:46

the CX team at Sweet Green.

40:48

When their app came out,

40:50

they were getting a lot of cancellation requests, right?

40:53

And so what happened was customer helped

40:55

develop out of workflow,

40:57

utilizing chatbots, AI,

40:59

to go through the conversations

41:01

and take action on the cancellations.

41:03

Those are very tier one things, right?

41:07

That then allow the Sweet Green team

41:09

to have the availability to handle

41:11

like truly humanized experiences, right?

41:14

Like things that like they need help with.

41:17

So I think one AI in chatbots

41:19

is not going to come for the support agent's jobs.

41:23

I think if anything,

41:24

and this will lead to my next question,

41:26

if anything, it will allow your support agents

41:30

to have more time to deliver a humanized experience,

41:33

but also the availability to level themselves up

41:37

in other skills that pertain to retention

41:41

or leveling themselves up in like customer experience.

41:44

And so, you know, maybe it's going through,

41:47

going through a list or availability of people

41:51

who are like, who've purchased three different times

41:54

for your product,

41:54

but maybe should be converted to a subscriber, right?

41:56

Like things like that.

41:57

Like I think it just allows your agents

42:00

to be able to do like very like top level stuff.

42:03

So my question to you, switching gears,

42:06

very much away from AI is what is your hot take

42:10

on CX leadership and leveling up CX agents

42:13

to work their way into retention roles?

42:17

- I think that something that I've thought about a lot

42:21

in the last two years,

42:24

I've always like been involved

42:26

in the retention side of the business.

42:29

Jones was the first job I had that was meaningfully

42:33

like directing both parts of the business

42:36

and something that I've learned is that

42:38

it is two sides of the brain.

42:40

Like CX is a more creative empathetic side of the brain.

42:42

Retention is a lot of data.

42:45

So I think it takes a different part of the brain

42:49

to do both.

42:50

I think that we very often combine the two recently,

42:54

but I think it was really challenging for me at Jones.

42:58

Like my honest take here is it was challenging.

43:03

I think it's a very, especially at a business

43:06

that was growing that fast.

43:07

My completely brutally honest take

43:11

is that it was very challenging.

43:12

I think it's, I'm lucky that Joanne,

43:17

who's leading retention at Jones was an incredible operator.

43:22

The deeply understood retention,

43:25

but also deeply understood what great experience looks like.

43:27

So I think that's like to run retention,

43:30

you need to have, in my opinion,

43:32

a better leg up on the data and an analyzation,

43:35

meaning you're better off as a retention operator

43:38

with a dash of CX and you are at CX

43:41

with a dash of retention.

43:42

I think you need to be able to either have that data analysis

43:45

or upscow quickly.

43:47

Frankly, I was unable to upscow fast enough

43:51

on the retention side to get where they needed to get.

43:54

Or I didn't feel like I was able to upscow fast enough.

43:58

So I think that that's the only challenge.

44:01

But if you find somebody,

44:02

the flip side of that is like most of CX is just like,

44:06

oh, if you're entry level and you don't find the job,

44:08

you try to get a job in CX

44:09

because it feels entry level.

44:10

So there's a lot of that also,

44:11

which is like as much as you want to shift the paradigm,

44:14

it's still somewhat there.

44:15

So if we find people that generally lean towards data

44:20

and analyzation and deeply understanding cohorts,

44:23

I hope for a time that you won't have to be that savvy

44:26

in order to run a retention program.

44:27

But I think today you really need to be a ways

44:31

at cohorting and segment analysis.

44:33

So if you have that and then you also have a retention,

44:36

a CX mind, that's like the best, best, best, best, best

44:40

in class programs have a wizard on retention

44:43

that completely gets and sits very close to CX.

44:46

That's the dream.

44:47

- Yeah, absolutely.

44:48

And I think that also retention isn't always the dream

44:50

for every CX or right?

44:53

Like some people, like I've led teams where some people

44:56

were like, yeah, all right, they've moved into

44:58

like retention marketing or lifecycle marketing.

44:59

Like I did, I moved into those places

45:02

because like I love marketing, right?

45:05

But I have also had individuals under me

45:10

who really more so just want to be a leader

45:13

in the support side of things.

45:14

Or they want to move to the community management side

45:17

of things.

45:17

So I think that CX and retention, yes, are one in the same,

45:21

like they're constantly being put under

45:23

like one of the same lately.

45:25

But I also think that like not every CX team

45:27

is a retention team.

45:29

- Correct.

45:29

- And you need to really understand like, okay,

45:33

is that leader or those individuals,

45:34

do they have that passion for segmenting and co-hearding

45:39

and like marketing brain?

45:40

Or do they have that passion for the empathy

45:42

and community building brain?

45:43

And those are two different pathways.

45:46

That's my point.

45:47

- Yep.

45:48

- Okay, last couple of questions, my dude,

45:50

we're gonna spend a whole 15 minutes on this.

45:54

- I'm excited.

45:55

- As we talk a lot.

45:56

- Yeah, all the hard questions.

45:57

- They're not really hard, I promise.

45:59

- Oh, shoot, okay.

46:01

Okay.

46:01

Do you think that the retention in CX playbook

46:06

is ever fully solved?

46:08

- I mean, I think it's a very, very quickly evolving space,

46:16

especially on CX and retention.

46:19

I mean, generally come changes quickly,

46:20

but CX and retention consistently is shifting.

46:24

I think the playbook hasn't been changed

46:28

in the last like 50, 60 years until like ECOM 2.0

46:32

or D2C 2.0, which is like when we realized

46:34

that like sustainable growth is important

46:36

and retention is important and that shifted budget

46:38

towards CX because CX and retention,

46:40

like in order to retain the customer,

46:41

you need a great experience.

46:43

I don't think it's gonna evolve that quickly

46:46

or not that quickly that meaningfully.

46:48

Like I don't think it'll completely shift

46:49

like it did in the last couple of years,

46:51

but I think it continues to evolve.

46:54

- Yeah.

46:55

And that's kind of a trick question because like,

46:57

this basically what we're talking about,

46:59

but I think that people really get stagnant

47:02

thinking about it.

47:03

So if you learn nothing, learn that like--

47:06

- Stay on your toes.

47:07

- Always stay on your phone.

47:09

- The robots are coming for you.

47:10

- They're coming.

47:10

They're taking your job specifically.

47:12

Okay, for you, like you have your newsletter,

47:16

you obviously had like down to chat, podcast,

47:20

you like are always in like content

47:21

and like doing a lot of fun things,

47:23

but what type of content do you personally consume?

47:26

- I love, so I have a problem that I struggle

47:32

to listen things at regular speed.

47:34

And I can't, I'm not a big reader.

47:38

So I'm very, I'm always listening.

47:40

I listen to podcasts at like two and a half

47:42

or three times speed and I consume a lot of that.

47:46

I love listening to like econ podcasts.

47:49

I do read a couple of newsletters.

47:52

I generally feel like we've discussed

47:55

at the beginning of this conversation

47:56

that I try to consume things that are outside

47:58

of my purview.

47:59

So I deeply understood SaaS way before I started in SaaS

48:02

where I realized I didn't deeply understand it,

48:04

but I knew enough to jump in.

48:06

And I feel similarly like I try to deeply understand

48:09

hospitality and get a good grip of what finance looks like.

48:14

And I try to consume wider.

48:16

But yeah, I'd say a couple of newsletters,

48:20

a couple of podcasts.

48:22

Yeah, now I drive to the office every once in a while,

48:26

which is a good two hours.

48:27

So I get through probably,

48:29

I'm not gonna math or write 10 hours of podcasts

48:31

and not 10, but six.

48:34

- I like don't, I mean, I consume a lot more

48:36

like business newsletters and like,

48:39

I read yours every week.

48:42

- Thank you.

48:43

- R-E's, R-E-M-R-E's, Daniel-M-R-E's,

48:45

the power couple.

48:49

- Nix, you know, there's like quite a few like Kendall,

48:54

Dickie Zends, like newest like, nates.

48:56

Nates, oh my God, how did I forget me?

48:58

- It's fresh checkout.

48:59

- That's a really great one.

49:00

But so like my, but like newsletters is where I consume,

49:04

but it's interesting podcast.

49:06

I like don't consume a lot of it.

49:08

I consume about like cereal, like, you know,

49:12

true crime stuff or a lot of astrology,

49:14

my little Leo friend here.

49:17

But like not business.

49:19

And I don't know why.

49:20

Anyway, that's a random thing.

49:22

Okay, these are a little bit personal,

49:24

but I want to get down to the nitty gritty

49:26

and I want the audience to really know who you are.

49:28

You ready?

49:29

- Okay.

49:30

- What would you tell Eli on day one

49:33

of his first ever job?

49:35

- Wow.

49:37

- Deep.

49:38

- It'll be, it'll never get easy,

49:46

but it'll be slightly less challenging.

49:48

Something that I realized after almost a decade in this space,

49:54

I had like a quarter life crisis

49:55

and I realized that I want to shift

49:57

to do something very different.

49:59

And the first question I asked myself was,

50:02

what did you like and dislike about what you did

50:04

in the last eight years?

50:05

And then I reframed the question of if you can choose

50:08

like three qualities that are super meaningful,

50:12

what would you choose?

50:13

And I realized that the space I'm working in

50:16

was not one of them.

50:16

It was three, one of them was work with people

50:18

much smarter than me.

50:20

Feel super challenged every day.

50:22

Have a good time doing it.

50:23

Those were the three most meaningful things.

50:25

And I realized like,

50:26

didn't matter what space I was in,

50:27

didn't matter how large the company was.

50:29

All the things that people told me were consideration.

50:31

Like, are you crazy going from a 20 person company

50:33

to a 800 person company?

50:35

Or are you crazy going to SaaS?

50:36

Like those things didn't matter at all.

50:39

But I struggled, I continued to struggle

50:41

from imposter syndrome.

50:43

And I would tell myself that it won't get easy,

50:44

but it'll be less challenging.

50:47

And I think that to me,

50:50

the biggest challenge was breaking in.

50:52

So I applied to like over 100 jobs

50:55

in the span of two years,

50:57

just trying to break into the space

50:58

until I got, you know, the nugs and Ollie Pop job.

51:01

It was really, really hard.

51:03

And it was very, I almost gave up a bunch of times

51:06

of like, this isn't saying,

51:07

like I can't even get an interview.

51:08

You wanted really, you got real.

51:12

- No, I love that.

51:13

- Actually, I'm putting down this lappy top to like,

51:16

I think that that's like one of the,

51:19

you hit on a point that I think that a lot of people,

51:22

whoever, if you're junior, even exact level,

51:24

it doesn't matter like whatever level you are.

51:26

Like I think it's really important to like remember

51:29

this one thing out of this conversation is that,

51:32

so Ollie, like you didn't go to college.

51:36

Like you started your career in, you know,

51:39

NCX and then worked your way through it, right?

51:41

And if you hadn't like allowed people

51:44

and opened the doors for you or applied for those 200 jobs

51:47

and all of these things,

51:48

you wouldn't be in the place that you are today, right?

51:50

And every like, every no can equal a yes at some point, right?

51:55

But I think what's really important in like,

51:56

our story is actually very similar to this.

51:59

I went to art school.

52:00

I went to art school, didn't know what I wanted to do,

52:02

ended up in customer service jobs.

52:03

And the amount of people that have told me no in my life,

52:07

or have kept me in like a lower level job

52:10

because I was making money for the company.

52:12

I was like really good at sales or all these things, right?

52:16

And I would always crave that challenge,

52:18

but I would be afraid the imposter syndrome of like,

52:21

oh, you're not enough or you can't do this or whatever.

52:24

But sometimes you just have to push through it

52:29

and take the risk to get to the next piece of it, right?

52:32

And like, and I mean that individually,

52:35

but I also mean that to the audience,

52:37

to anybody listening,

52:39

take the chance on the person that might be the diamond

52:41

and the rough, because they might make your company

52:45

the dopest company possible.

52:47

Their ideas might actually bring you to the next level.

52:51

- Two things that come to mind is number one,

52:54

having a chip on my shoulder is my favorite quality

52:57

about myself.

52:58

Like I consistently feel like I don't deserve it

53:00

in a way that makes me wanna work 10 times harder

53:03

and take on larger challenges.

53:04

Like the fact that I had so many people

53:06

that I thought were like my friends saying like,

53:08

you're crazy, you're risking your entire,

53:10

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

53:12

Yeah, you're about to throw hands.

53:15

- Literally, like what?

53:17

- Number two, like something that's been funny is like,

53:20

little known fact, I applied to Yupo in 2015.

53:23

My resume was my date of birth and my name.

53:26

There was not a single thing under it.

53:28

It was like one half ass job.

53:29

Like I had, it was like a applying for credit card

53:32

without credit.

53:32

It was like a thin file.

53:34

And I think that's like something I start almost every meeting

53:37

with a Yupo and somebody's like,

53:38

what do you do here?

53:39

What's your name?

53:40

And I'm like, so this is my victory lap.

53:43

I applied in 2015.

53:44

But it's, I cannot tell you like I've saved those resumes

53:50

and those cover letters because I haven't made a resume

53:54

in the last like five years, but I've saved those,

53:56

or four years, but I've saved those resumes.

53:58

Like the CV's, the cover letters and the folder.

54:01

I also have a shit list, which is like super immature.

54:04

- We both have a shit list.

54:06

- I'm like, mm.

54:07

- Like we're so rude.

54:08

And like some of them like interviewed me and then ghosted me.

54:11

Some of them just never responded to my email.

54:13

I have like a small shit list, which somebody reached out

54:15

in the LinkedIn DMs when I was at Jones like saying,

54:18

hey, we'd love to work with you, blah, blah, blah.

54:19

And I'm like, how dare you?

54:21

I applied for a CSM role in 2018.

54:24

And he didn't even give me an interview.

54:25

And then I was like, wow, well, that was the pettiest DM

54:28

I've ever sent.

54:30

But it's a very interesting concept.

54:35

- Yeah.

54:37

Well, what's interesting about that too is like, I don't--

54:40

- How childish I am.

54:41

- No.

54:42

- No, I don't, we just never forget.

54:45

You know what I mean?

54:46

When you like, we're--

54:46

- It's not a fully rich.

54:47

- When you work really, really hard.

54:50

And like, I mean, dude, I've had this job before.

54:52

When I was in the travel industry,

54:54

I worked at this company for five years, okay?

54:57

Five years, and I was always kept at like an associate level.

55:02

Right?

55:03

Because, I'll tell you why,

55:05

because it was like unlimited commission, right?

55:08

And I was really fucking good at my job.

55:11

And it wasn't like me slinging stuff.

55:13

It was nothing like that.

55:13

I was just really good at like customer service

55:16

and account management that I like would be crafty

55:19

about fairs, like whatever.

55:20

And I would save people money.

55:21

And like there was airlines to pay you commission,

55:23

whatever, right?

55:24

But I was really good at it.

55:25

And I would always go to the president's club.

55:27

And every year, there would be an assistant manager role

55:31

or a team leader role up.

55:33

And every year, I would apply for them.

55:35

And every single year, my boss would keep me

55:39

in the same spot because I made that money,

55:42

that company too much money in that role, right?

55:46

- Yeah.

55:47

- And like, but instead of, instead of actually like,

55:51

allowing me to level up and upskill myself into like,

55:54

management and then training other people under me

55:58

about how to be like really good with fairs

56:00

or whatever it is.

56:01

- Well, sure, I cited it.

56:02

- Exactly.

56:03

So like my, so what's interesting is like,

56:06

those scenarios have to happen to me very often.

56:09

I worked in the B2B space for a really long time.

56:11

Like I left, like I worked in the B2B space

56:13

for a really long time.

56:14

Like, festivals is actually my fifth startup

56:17

that I've ever worked at.

56:19

But it was my first D2C company that I've ever worked at,

56:21

right?

56:22

And I worked as a customer experience leader.

56:24

I've done product marketing, I've done success,

56:26

I've done all sorts of pieces of customer experience

56:29

within the B2B space.

56:31

And I kept wanting to be in like D2C and ECOM,

56:35

and nobody would give me a chance.

56:37

Nobody would straight up give me a chance.

56:39

And I remember applying for a role

56:42

and getting pretty far in the interview process

56:45

and then being told,

56:46

well, you don't have any D2C experience.

56:48

So this is actually why we're not hiring you.

56:50

Which, okay, whatever, I understand it,

56:52

I'm not mad about that piece of it, right?

56:55

But my point is I applied for so many of these roles,

56:58

constantly, constantly, constantly,

56:59

and never would get them.

57:01

But funny enough, my first D2C role was working at festivals.

57:07

And how I never moved to Chicago,

57:09

I never would have met our previous CEO,

57:13

Jim Murray, shout out to you,

57:14

talked to you yesterday, you're an awesome person.

57:17

But he took a chance on me

57:18

because of my B2B career,

57:20

and then I built this dope customer experience

57:24

across support, community, and digital experience,

57:26

and took so much of that B2B learning

57:29

of user journeys into the space.

57:31

And I worked for one of the biggest ECOM creator brands, right?

57:36

And I mean, this is not me chipping on my shoulder,

57:39

but that's my point, is like,

57:41

sometimes you gotta get up,

57:43

and people are gonna fucking tell you no,

57:45

constantly tell you no, right?

57:47

And then sometimes you just gotta get up and keep trying,

57:50

because now I'm on my own victory lap, right?

57:54

- You should.

57:54

- I B2B, B2C, I would do fractional for a lot of really,

57:59

some of your favorite brands,

58:00

I'm doing a lot of fun stuff for them,

58:02

and now I'm back in B2B again,

58:04

rabbling up, revving up customer,

58:09

and to deliver dope customer experience, right?

58:12

It's like full fucking circle.

58:14

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58:16

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58:49

Now back to the show.

58:51

We are going to wrap this up.

58:52

I have one last final, final question,

58:55

and like, doesn't have to be long,

58:58

but Eli, what is your best customer experience

59:02

you've ever had from a SaaS company,

59:06

or a D2C company?

59:08

- I will say, that's a good question.

59:13

I will say some of the,

59:16

but I can't, this is pretty sad

59:19

that I can't think of any great experiences I've had, period.

59:21

I mean, some of the SaaS providers

59:25

that we've worked with in the past

59:26

just so thoughtful around experience,

59:29

which like I've been inspired by people

59:30

like the team at PostScript

59:32

about how thoughtful they were around experience.

59:34

They were one of the people that I've worked so closely with.

59:37

Shout out to Beller and shout out to Mike.

59:40

I mean, these are people that inspired me

59:42

to be more thoughtful around CS and experience and strategy.

59:47

And outside of that,

59:48

I'd say that on the brand side,

59:51

brands like Shopop, which is owned by Amazon,

59:55

it's like they've just,

59:58

something's missing,

59:58

some things delayed in transit,

01:00:00

no worries at all will send you a new one.

01:00:01

I think that the bar is so low,

01:00:04

which is like disappointing and depressing,

01:00:07

but that's where the bar is,

01:00:08

is like if something's lost in transit,

01:00:09

like will you shout out off fifth,

01:00:14

it's been three weeks,

01:00:15

some things lost in transit

01:00:16

and they're still like filing a claim for me.

01:00:18

And I think that that's like the reason why

01:00:21

I will shop over and over and over with Shopop

01:00:25

or like a Mr. Porter

01:00:27

or people that take experience seriously.

01:00:29

And I'll probably avoid like Essence and off fifth

01:00:32

and all the kind of like,

01:00:33

oh, who knows when it'll ship to you?

01:00:35

And I think we've,

01:00:36

we've often like, you know, those are marketplaces.

01:00:39

So we've often said like, okay,

01:00:40

who cares if like,

01:00:41

Kith makes you wait five days to give you a track.

01:00:45

Like who cares that like ALD might have an awful return policy

01:00:48

because like they're a streetwear brand

01:00:49

and everyone loves them.

01:00:50

And it's like, yes, it's unfortunate,

01:00:53

but that's kind of true.

01:00:54

It's like people will continue to purchase from a brand

01:00:56

if you can only buy it from them directly.

01:00:59

But you buying it,

01:01:00

you still don't feel great about the company,

01:01:01

you feel good about yourself

01:01:02

and you want to show other people that you're a high-paced.

01:01:05

But I think it's like the relationship you have

01:01:06

with the brand over time,

01:01:08

meaning like when a brand like Kith is less cool,

01:01:12

are you still riding that Kith train

01:01:13

or are you onto the next one?

01:01:15

And I think that's where loyalty is confusing

01:01:17

for brands more than it is for consumers is like,

01:01:20

if you want to wear something that's cool,

01:01:22

you're wearing something that's cool.

01:01:24

But if they developed a real brand relationship,

01:01:26

like think about the brands that have lasted

01:01:27

a really, really long time,

01:01:29

it's because they developed a real, real thoughtful relationship.

01:01:32

Now, will a loyalty program help you?

01:01:34

Probably not unless your experience is great.

01:01:36

So I think that that's to me,

01:01:37

something I've been thinking about a lot lately

01:01:39

is some of these like hypey streetwear brands

01:01:42

that have, they had the right of a lifetime

01:01:45

for the last five years, 10 years.

01:01:48

When they become uncool,

01:01:50

people start thinking like,

01:01:51

what's the experience that great?

01:01:52

Is the clothing quality that great?

01:01:54

And I think that's like the long-term play

01:01:56

that not enough people are playing, right?

01:01:58

So yeah, you made more money

01:01:59

'cause you charge $10 for every order,

01:02:01

whether it's $10 or 500.

01:02:03

You don't offer free shipping,

01:02:04

so you make more margin in every order.

01:02:06

Yes, your return policy is like,

01:02:07

we'll give you a gift card,

01:02:08

we're never gonna give you your cash back

01:02:10

even if the size doesn't fit you

01:02:11

and you bought one specific thing.

01:02:12

Like, I can think of like 20 or 30,

01:02:15

kind of like obnoxious or strange,

01:02:17

kind of like quirky streetwear brands, phenomenons.

01:02:21

But when you focus on experience,

01:02:22

which is one of the reasons why I loved Matt Happy

01:02:25

over the last couple of years

01:02:26

is because they put a staunch focus on experience.

01:02:29

And on like, yeah, they still charge what they started,

01:02:31

charge, but they have a return policy that's functional.

01:02:34

They actually have a great team shout out

01:02:36

to their CX team that's like incredible.

01:02:39

They think about returns,

01:02:41

they think about free shipping.

01:02:42

They think about like, yeah,

01:02:43

that you don't have to offer a discount

01:02:44

to be a brand that puts experience first.

01:02:46

Yeah.

01:02:47

That was the most long-winded answer here.

01:02:49

No, I get it.

01:02:50

It was a really good one.

01:02:51

Yeah.

01:02:52

Because it actually wraps up with this,

01:02:53

like perfectly, it's ultimately about the user journey

01:02:58

in your brand, in your company

01:03:00

that keeps people coming back

01:03:02

and keeps people even talking about you,

01:03:03

whether you're a hype company or not.

01:03:05

If you have a dope experience,

01:03:07

people are gonna continuously come back to you

01:03:09

and that's what they're loyal about.

01:03:10

Love it.

01:03:11

All right, Eli, I love you so much.

01:03:13

Thanks for being my bestie.

01:03:14

Thank you.

01:03:15

Thanks for coming on.

01:03:16

Where can the audience find you?

01:03:18

So it's Eli Weiss with an extra S on Twitter.

01:03:22

So E-L-I-W-E-I-S-S-S.

01:03:25

Eli Weiss on LinkedIn, my newsletter is Eli Weiss

01:03:28

with anextrass.com.

01:03:30

And I'm super introverted.

01:03:33

So if you reach out to me with a long, nice message

01:03:36

and I just say thank you so much,

01:03:37

and you say can we hop on a call

01:03:39

and I say thank you so much.

01:03:41

It's not because I didn't understand,

01:03:42

it's because I hate hopping on calls

01:03:44

'cause I'm introverted.

01:03:45

So he's a very introverted friend.

01:03:47

But it's the best CX retention person

01:03:50

you know in space.

01:03:52

Thank you.

01:03:52

All right, we'll see you next week.

01:03:53

Thank you for joining us on the Juice.

01:03:55

Juice with Jess.

01:03:56

Juice with Jess.

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01:04:07

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